Friday, April 11, 2008

make sure you keep checking the milk....

well, i'm off. i feel moved to put down my blogging for a month, so i have posted a month's worth of questions. feel free to chat about them and even revisit them as you see fit. i can hear myself talk anytime. hearing others' perspectives helps me grow.

i've also posted everything from my past in chonological order for anyone interested in history. i am also planning an art gallery forthcoming. i hope you guys have fun. help yourselves to anything you wish. bring anything you like. don't forget, there are games in the closet if you get bored with discussion. enjoy yourselves. be back soon. much love. jON

19 comments:

deconstructedchristian said...

Enjoy your hiatus. :-)

jON said...

more pictures than you can shake a stick at.

zaavanco. update

Delirious said...

Thanks for visiting my blog. I hope you dont' get blog withdrawal while you are away. ;)

I'll have a look at your questions.

Valorosa said...

Have you ever wondered why God didn't protect Abel from Cain?

jON said...

yes. god put a protective mark on cain afterwards so that no one would kill him, so it's obviously something god can do...

Valorosa said...

Yep

Things that make you go Hmmm

Delirious said...

Valorosa,
This begs the question, why doesn't God stop bad from happening to all people? I think the answer is that God gives us free agency. But we will be judged by the choices that we make.

Valorosa said...

Hello Delirious

Maybe you could explain that a little more. You lost me a bit.

The choices here I see are God's alone when it comes to Abel. He knew an innocent man was about to die and did nothing to stop it Other than a warning to Cain, He did not intervene for Abel.

deconstructedchristian said...

I have just given you an award :-)

See this post for details.

Delirious said...

Valarosa,
My answer to this question turned out to be a bit more lengthy than I planned, and I didn't want to hijack Jon's blog, so I posted about this topic on my own blog. http://mormonchristianity.blogspot.com Please feel free to leave comments.

jON said...

please. hijack at will...

heather- that's so sweet. me? subversive?

Valorosa said...

Hey Delirious

Cool comments on free agency ... I guess that coincides with the evangelical Christian viewpoint of free will.

I'm not sure I agree with free will though ... freedom is not really a reality anywhere for us humans. There are relative degrees of what we tend to mean as freedom, but we really all have someone to answer to. God is the only one I know who has complete freedom and answers to no one.

Does the pot really have anything to say to the potter?
Isaiah, Jeremiah.

So my question was not exactly as you have understood it.

Do you not see the game here? The tree is placed in the middle of the garden and we are told not to touch it.

Have you never asked yourself why the tree was there in the first place?
I know that choosing to eat of the fruit of that tree has placed us in a whole new ball park of choices, i.e., it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So now we have the knowledge of good and evil and become a creation that needs contending with. We have become a challenge and a prize in the war between good and evil.

What the Lord is saying to Job is this .... I am God and who are you to question me as to my dealings with mankind?

Have you never wondered at the reason Satan was allowed to touch Job at all? Have you never checked out that conversation between the two of them before Satan was allowed to harm Job?

I'm sure you have, I'm just asking, what do you think of that deal between them that caused Job horrible grief?

I Job 39 1-7

Not being offensive ... just curious.

You mention that the Sons of God are we created humans?
BUT there is NO MENTION of the Sons of God at the creation of the earth shouting for joy in any translation that I have looked into.
Is this something that you have added or was it left out?


You said:
God isn't physically present to make sure that we obey.

I don't quite agree with this ... The Holy Spirit is very present ... our consciences bear witness to that and that is actually better than a limited physical presence.

Back to the Sons of God being us in heaven again.

If we were with God in heaven before we were 'created' here on earth what kind of game was this to send us here where there is so much pain and suffering?

Even in the most peaceful places here death, illness and heartache are ever present.

I think ... :-)

that God is God and He will do as He pleases.
The New Testament doesn't seem to have these kind of chess type game stories such as Job ...Christ's sacrifice brought us a whole new relationship with the Father.

I wonder if the reason for this is because THE Son of God actually lived among us for a few years and gained a better understanding of creation.... We were created in God's image but we are not exactly like Him.
To a God who knows no limits I wonder if He totally understood us before He came to make a better way for us?

I am wondering whether death meant the same thing to The Father before He sent His Son to live among us.

Just a lot of wondering and curiosity ... things I hope will be answered some day.

Delirious said...

Valarosa, if you don't mind, I copied and pasted your comment on my blog so that we can continue the conversation there. I hate to hijack other's blogs. lol

Valorosa said...

An apology to Delirious...
I was looking at Job 39 ...
tired at the time ;-)

Here in fact ARE the Sons of God, whoever they are, singing with the morning stars when the cornerstone of the earth was laid in 3 out of 5 translations.

Sons of God? Angels? Do you think they are the same? Jesus, as I understand it is the Son of God. Was He or is He an angel as well?
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Job 38:7 NIV
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
....
Amplified
When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
....
NASB
When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
....
The Message
While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the angels shouted praise?
....
21st Century KJV
Or who laid the cornerstone thereof, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Interesting indeed.

Delirious said...

Another interesting scripture that speaks about a life before this one is found in Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

jON said...

sorry i'm late on this. what an amazing post on agency, D. you talk as much as i do! not a bad thing. you just lay out the whole of your thoughts for all to see. very admirable.

i can see how we may be able to chalk cain and abel up to human agency. for me, and what i think is at the heart of what V is saying. why would god NOT mark out abel for not being killed (someone who he enjoyed and was proud of) when he obviously has the power to do it? and in turn DID do it for his brother AFTER he had killed abel? why would he do it for the one he didn't enjoy and not for the one he did? do we have a skewed understanding of death as a negative thing? was it a blessing for abel to die so young and be one with his creator? (my own questions and probably not so much what V was getting at)

more along your lines, V, i too have wondered about the tree of knowledge of G&E. why was it there if he didn't want us to get into it? he could just as easily NOT placed it there. until he spoke and gave commandment, the possibility for disobedience didn't even exist. and if we really have "sinful natures", where did we get them if not from the creator?

Delirious said...

The tree was an important part of the plan. The tree represented a choice. They were told not to eat of it, but in LDS scripture we have a slightly different account.
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Moses 3:17

Adam and Eve were told that they were given the agency to choose for themselves. But eating of the tree would bring about two kinds of death, physical and spiritual. Spiritual death means being separated from the presence of God. Before eating of the tree, they were in His presence in the garden. But after eating, they were commanded to leave the garden, and were separated from Him. This "fall" was important in the plan, because if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten of the fruit, they would never have been able to have children, and would not have known the difference between good and evil. This was a key reason for our coming to this earth, to learn this difference. They must be given the choice in order to learn. God knew they would choose to eat of it, therefore he provided a Savior for them to help them overcome both spiritual and physical death.

Satan, I'm sure, thought that by tempting Eve, he could thwart the plan. But actually, he ended up helping it along. In Moses 4:6 we read, "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."
As for Adam and Eve, they weighed the choice, and chose to eat the fruit so that they could learn and know the difference between good and evil. God did, however, prevent them from eating from the tree of life, because if they had done this, they would have lived forever, in their sins. He cast them out of the garden, and they were provided the Savior to help them overcome the fall.

And once again, Delirious not only comments, but writes and entire chapter. :)

jON said...

interesting. not sure how others feel, but i enjoy the fact that you quote from the book of mormon. i actually have 2 copies here (so i can double check what you're quoting) that were given to me by elders prince and mower a few years ago. it reads a lot like the KJV, but i can handle it.

this certainly sounds like a plausible story to me. where things don't solidify for me, though, is them needing to know the difference between good and evil.

firstly - i have a question about your assertion that they were incapable of having children until they knew good & evil. how do you know this?

secondly - if god's design was for people to know good & evil, why would he command them to not know it? why would he give them a "tree" and tell them not to eat of it? why would he desire their disobedience as a means to his end? why wouldn't he simply create them with the knowledge already in tact?

the reason i ask is because i have found, in my own life, with the cross firmly in place now to forgive all forever, that NOT knowing good & evil is actually a positive thing. NOT knowing these things keeps me from judging others and allows me to accept them as they are at the moment. it allows my love to be unconditional.

this account, or the end of it anyway, sounds very similar to the opinion of some in the Wiccan religion. i read in the book "drawing down the moon" a warlock was quoted as saying "eve and the serpent were right." a ritual then took place with an apple being passed around and everyone took a bite to symbolize their connection and approval of that moment.

jON said...

well, the words are returning and so i had best be posting again. i'm three tags down, plus a fourth that i ran across yesterday which should be fun.

as well as discussions i started elsewhere with erin about community. and i mean real community. do we just sit by idly while our paradigm of life crumbles because those who put capitalism in place and advocated building our society around gas powered vehilcles were short sighted? do we continue to live within offering help and hope until we too are consumed? or should we be trying to build something else as god gives wisdom as an alternative, and later, a life raft?

and a conversation with rob about doctrines. which we have of course had before, but rob offers a different perspective and can actually discuss it without being insulting or condescending. my next response will be much longer than a comment, so i'll post it here because it goes along so well with the whole "spirit vs. law" study i am doing. (in case you want to get up to speed on the discussion, there are posts here, here, and here.)

and of course more questions, because they just never stop. welcome to the newbies who have come to play the game, welcome back to the oldbies who have taken a break with me to "travel" elsewhere. here's to a great and growthful summer.