Saturday, March 29, 2008

should we be worshipping jesus?


One Voice of Many said...

One more thing for me to answer with:
"I don't know what that means anymore."

faintnot said...


Valorosa said...

The wise men brought Him gifts and worshipped Him.
After He walked on the water out to the boat the disciples worshipped Him
They worshipped Him after He rose again

He did not stop them from worshipping Him as Peter stopped Cornelius and the angels stop us saying that they are our fellow servants.

Hebrews 1

God's Final Word 'in' His Son
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the angels did He ever say,
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

And of the angels He says,
But of the Son He says,

But to which of the angels has He ever said,
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers"

jON said...

thank you wendy, for your scriptural perspective. i understand that to ask such a question can be a frightening and daunting thing to even try to comprehend. but, for me, it is an important question i have been wondering for awhile now.

i have no doubt that it is acceptable for us to offer worship to jesus. in fact, i think it is the beginning of our faith. but what i am really wondering, and getting at, is should the worship of jesus be the end rather than a means to a different end?

as i read the letters and accounts in the new testament, i see a deliniation drawn between god and jesus. even in the examples you gave, jesus is spoken of as sitting at the right hand of the "Majesty on high" and not being that majesty himself.

jesus spoke himself and told us the father is greater than him. he said he is the way to the father. he said he is the door. and in your quote from john, jesus spoke of the true worshippers as worshipping the father. and we are also told that at the end of days, jesus will step aside and hand over the kingdom to the father.

so, to ask a deeper question, is worshipping jesus the same as worshipping the father, or are they two different things?

Valorosa said...

This is a good study and a very interesting question. It is a good learning time as well for all looking in so would you take the time to back up what you are saying with the scriptures you are talking about?
I would like to explore this as well. I have noticed this many times and would like to get to the bottom of it if we can ... sometimes we can't as much as we search but trying is fun.

We cannot leave the Holy Spirit out of this search ... Is the Holy Spirit of God temporary while we are apart from the Lord ? In the OT whenever worship is mentioned it is God and "The Lord" who is worshipped.

I find it very interesting that Heb 1 states that God made the world through His son who is the WORD.

John 1 tells us that

He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Interesting stuff. And why did God choose to create in this way...

Pink Floyd and cosmic consciousness ;-)

Nate said...

You have hit on somehting that Erin at Decompressing Faith and I have been talking about. She used the pronoun they in speaking about God. Meaning the trinity, which I do not ascribe to.

To me it is a hierarchy, tith God at the Top, Jesus, as his right hand, and the Holy Spirit as the General. But for me, God is the one that I give my allegiance to. Jesus is my LORD as God has placed him over all of this earth. The Holy Spirit, I do not worship, had never even thought to.

Anonymous said...

Jonny boy,

Long time no comment. I guess waht I would like to ask in addition to your original question is why do we worship God or Jesus at all? He put us on this earth in order to hopefully have relationships and friends come from free will and for that we worship him because if we choose to we will have everlasting life? But if we don't choose to then we'll spend eternity burning in hell? What am I missing here? Where should the worship start? If that was a human ruler we would all call him a monster. He created us with all of our flaws and then forgives us for having them. What a sweet deal for him, he looks like a great guy while explaining away our deficiencies. Why aren't we angry at him instead of worshipping? After all we are his creation.

- little bro

jON said...

sorry, v, i'm just so used to quoting anything the same way. here goes...

i have not catalogued every instance in which paul speaks of god and jesus together, and makes a point to separate them out as though two different entities. (usually in his greetings...) suggesting that there is god, and there is jesus. john also does this many times in revelation separating "him who sits on the throne" and "the lamb who was slain" as being two separate entities. if interested, i can actually find all of these references. it would take a while, so if you're not that interested, i'd rather use the time for something else...

as to the quotes...
john 14:28
john 14:6
john 10:7,9
1 cor. 15:27-28

nate, i see it like this...
a spirit is the part of a person who gives them intangible infinite life. it is a part of your being that exudes beyond you and mingles with others' spirits on a different level beyond mental or physical.

i think of holy spirit in this way. yet instead of being secondary, as our spiritual life and communication is, it is god's primary function for communication and interaction.

i don't believe the holy spirit is separate or distinct from the father. i don't think holy spirit has its own personality. i interact with it, and it certainly communicates with me, but i don't think that communication denotes an independant sentient being. it is simply communicating what the owner of the spirit desired to communicate to you. the being beyond , yet not separate from, their spirit.

i don't see jesus as being "co-eternal" with god. i understand it this way...

gen 3:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

god spoke. in that millisecond. in that brief moment, word was created where previously there had been none. then, through the power of that spoken word, light was created. but not before word was born. word was born, then light came into existence through that word.

(this view brings Col.1:15 into sharp focus for me)

we as bloggers know our relationsihp to our word. it is, in some sense, a "part" of us. it is a representation of us. you could even say it is our image. it has power to create or to destroy. yet that word is not us. the word simply serves to point towards a greater mind. the one behind the simple communication in front of you now.

little bro, excellent to have you here! my initial response is to say that your anger is towards an idol. you're yelling at a little statue of a god that doesn't really exist. i know, i was shocked when i found out. they do a really good job of trying to convince you it's alive and real.

the reason most of us are here is because we believe that the picture of god that you painted, which is a very common picture painted in many mainline organized christian churches in america, is utter bullshit.

i do have relationships with god and also with people. and i think that when people don't choose it, god weeps, he doesn't scream. (maybe he does. i know i'd be a little frustrated knowing that i had provided people with heaven and they insist on choosing hell every day...)
but i don't think he condemns. he calls on people like myself to draw near to the people he lays on my heart to help them to also find friends and relationships.

but i can't do it for everyone. i just can't. i'm finite. and most people don't have their spiritual ears turned on in order for god to be their friend, so they are reliant on living people who are tuned in to draw near them and help them.

how many people actually do this? and if we as people choose not to do this, how is that god's fault? for creating a place in which people have the ability to be selfish dicks if they want to? personally i would rather have a world like that, with the freedom it allows, instead of a rigidly maintained alternative.

but that's just me. i love freedom. i'm with the satanists on that one...

i apologize for not giving you guys enough credit. i was very afraid to post this question, but you have proved my fears wrong yet again. forgive me for not trusting you all more!

much love to everyone. thanks for sharing. keep talking.

Valorosa said...

I don't think Satanists are free at all.

Ruth said...

Well this is getting good!

little bro you have said what I have always thought but was afraid to ask. When you think about it that way it seems like a set up doesn't it?

I guess in my heart I trust that God knows what He's doing and one day I will get it. He has met me personally so many times that I know him as a person who knows me intimately . When I have one of the aha moments with him my response is to well - worship him.

However, I've had many of those moments in church where we are singing all those sucky worship songs and I say to myself "what are we doing this for anyways?"

Man - I can't believe I said that - am I a paradox or what? I hope no one's watching.

PS. Wendy thanks for doing the homework on this one. You really know your stuff. When I first saw Jon's question I thought "ya I know it says it somewhere a lot of times but where?"

jON said...

not wanting to run too far down a rabbit trail, as i am interested in the particular question at hand, i will clarify briefly.

i do not know if you know any satanists, val, or if you have read any satanist writings, but at the heart of what i've read and heard and discussed, satanists seem to value personal freedom above all else. and although it is not my primary concern, it is a big concern for me, and personal freedom is something i value highly. it is one place where my beliefs and those of satanists actually match.

that is why they opt for "satan" (whom they don't really believe in at all) in favor of the horrible image of god they are taught when they are young. the image that says "you can't do anything because if you do, i'm waiting to blast you. maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime. especially in the end when i condemn you forever."

which is what i felt what as the heart of what little bro was saying. sorry for not saying more towards your end, little bro, i just threw out my initial response. i have the same feelings as you and ruth towards a god who acts in such a manner. i have no desire to worship him, nor do i wish to be with such a god or his people for any length of time, much less eternity. if that is the way it really works, it makes life too depressing to move. yet, i don't think that's the way it really works.

however, i'm still investigating to find out how i think it really does work. (maybe it doesn't even work the same for everyone...?)these conversations are helpful in doing just that.

topics such as this are far too big for me to work on from a limited single vantage point.

i find it strange to notice that terms that we find in common use in evangelical circles, such as "god the son" aren't anywhere to be found in the bible. and if somehow, making this small change, does us more harm than good.

it seems, in the grand scheme of things, to be a very recent development that "the father" has been squeezed out of the picture in most christian circles in favor of complete devotion to jesus and worshipping him as our god.

rather than what i see in older circles being an HONORING of jesus for what he did for us in the spiritual realm that we can't see, as well as giving us a living example we can see of one devoted to the authority of the kingdom of god over human authority systems.
but i see most of the WORSHIP flowing towards the one they call "father" or "god."

so, as i said in the beginning, i just wonder if that's okay or if we should be directing our worship more towards the infinite intangible one and less towards jesus. or if we're supposed to be worshipping jesus and it just doesn't matter. and, as always, curious about other people's views on the subject.

Nate said...

Jon did you take a verbal laxative lately? Talk about diarrhea of the mouth.

Another way I like to think of the "Godhead". Is God is the Chairman of the Board, Jesus the CEO, and the Holy Spirit the COO. All talking constantly all day long. What one knows, the others know instantly. They are indelibly linked.

Now as to Jon's putting out there that the Holy Spirit may not be seperate from God is interesting. (I always write like the trinity doesn't exist.) Two seperate entities, with onw being able to extend himself into others. (That would be God, with the extention of the Holy Spirit.) Or a conduit of power/comminucation to every person in the universe. Interesting thought.

Valorosa said...

Awesome in my search I have found that the Holy Spirit will be with us always... IN us...
The IN things are cool

The Holy Spirit is IN us and we are IN Christ and Christ is IN the Father. We will all be folded together into the Father and God will be all in all as it says in vs 28 of 1 Cor 15.

Valorosa said...

In verse 28 of 1 Cor 15 it does not really say that Jesus will step aside and hand over the kingdom ... it says that the Son will be subject to Him after the Father has put everything under his feet.
But I don't really get that because I don't think there was a time when Jesus was not subject to the Father. He makes a point of stating that He does what He is told and what He sees the Father do all through.
When was He not subject to the Father? Is it an act of Christ's will to be subject to God because He is equal? Is He subject out of respect as a son is to a father who has made Him as powerful as He is? Is He subject out of Love?

Ruth said...

I don't even know what I belive anymore when I start dissecting it to much. In my head I don't differentiate between God the Father, Lord Jesus or Holy Spirit. They are all the same to me.

I sometimes wonder though - are we suposed to pray to God or Jesus or does it matter? Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on that.

Valorosa said...

Maybe we should all get back to the way Jesus taught the disciples to pray when they asked Him how to pray.

"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.'
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Interesting that this chapter also talks about giving to the poor in secret and fasting so it won't be noticed by others.

Jon, personal freedom is not something that is given freely. lol There is sorrow attached to personal freedom ... there is no escape from that here. Jesus paid the price of sorrow for the freedom He walked in.

The ONLY place personal freedom is, is in Christ as He is in the Father. Safety is a part of personal freedom ...

Satanists simply want to be away from the one who made them. Personal freedom to them is life without God. And Satanists are not quite as innocent as you have portrayed them here. There may be some naive ones among them... I will grant you that.

Eternal Death is the only alternative to this hard and just Creator ...
Eternal death is not freedom...

Justice is a hard thing ... let's be thankful there is a heart of love there that is deeper than we know toward those who will cut this awesome God some slack... for He is just and cannot tolerate injustice, it's just the way He is, but His heart melts with mercy toward those who are sorry for being part of injustice.

Nate said...

"I am the way the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me."

This was one of my AHA verses when I finally began to see what Jesus had done and accomplished.

He created the way to God, without intercessors. According to the old laws, only once a year, did the high priest enter the holy of holies, to interceed for all of the people who left sacrifices throughout the year. So only the chosen priest was able to talk directly to God. The holy of holies was seperated from the rest of the temple by a large purple curtain. When Jesus finally died, and the earth shook, the curtain was torn from top to bottom, creating a space to walk through. This symbolized that with Jesus' sacrofice, the WAY was now open for all to approach God, not just the high priest. So in my eyes, this says that we are now able to pray directly to God, without anyone else necessary to interceed for us.

My other love of this verse is, the truth and the life. Jesus made it possible for the Holy spirit to be IN each of us. Or he gave us the truth, which is another name for the Holy Spirit. He also made it possible for us to have eternal life. The Way the truth and the life. Awesome.

Ruth said...

"The Way the truth and the life."

I never thought about it that way. You're right Nate - The HS is the spirit of truth and Jesus is the way.

I understand that we have access to God through Jesus but I wondering if we still pray to only God or to Jesus as well or does it matter. I tend to pray to God the Father myself.

jON said...

diarrhea of the fingers actually. much less chunky than its oral counter-part...

i apologize, val. 1cor.15:24 says jesus will hand over the kingdom. i misreferenced it...

nate, that is the same verse that started opening up things for me in terms of thinking who is at the top of this chain. in it i saw jesus saying he was the way. the way to the father. not the final destination himself. i'm reading into it a bit here, but that's what i get out of it.

ruth, about 2 and a half years ago, when my religion fell apart, i stopped praying to jesus. not because i was upset at him or anything like that, my prayers just shifted to the father. in looking up verses about this, i found an interesting tension in john 14 & 16. it's all one speech if i recall, and in chapter 14:13-14 jesus tells his disciples he will do whatever they ask of him in his name. then later in chapter 16:26-27 he says that they will "ask of the father" and "not that i will ask on your behalf, for the father himself loves you."

of course, from the context of the passage in chapter 16, it is clear that jesus is speaking of the time period after he has been raised again. he does not make that distinction in chapter 14.

Valorosa said...

Hi little bro

I have been thinking about you the last two days. I wanted to put forth my thoughts on your comments if you care to hear me.

You commented:
He put us on this earth in order to hopefully have relationships and friends come from free will and for that we worship him because if we choose to we will have everlasting life? But if we don't choose to then we'll spend eternity burning in hell? What am I missing here?

I have found worship to be an act of love and gratitude form the heart of one who has searched ... not a book search.... but a heart search for Him and He has revealed Himself to those whose hearts are thirsty to know Him.

Worship is a love relationship with God ... not forced or done because there is something to gain ... just done.
True worship is done by those who have come to agree with love. God is love.
To a true worshipper there is no fear and worship is done from their hearts every day and every where.

Where should the worship start?

When you understand who God is.
God is love ...

One Voice of Many said...

Little bro - I have so many times said those same things. I do know where you're coming from. I don't think I have an argument against them at this point either.

Jon - satanists and Shakespear both agree: to thine own self be true There is definitely freedom there but we'll never know at what cost. I'm too conditioned in the evangelical way to take that step. I think atheists are safer. ;-)

My husband and I were talking about this subject the other day in the light of discussing Fedeism
At the end of discussing basically choosing to have faith I asked "then what do you do with Jesus?". His reply was that we are to worship God. Jesus didn't come to point to himself (to be worshiped) but to point back to God. All of the major mono-theist religions all point back to God creator. The differences come through discussions over each great religions' prophets that came to point the way. I don't make those comments to debate if Jesus was not the true prophet and maybe Mohammad was. I just mean that Jesus came to point the way back to the origin and that's whom we are to worship.

As far as choosing to worship; I usually can't make myself get in the mood, so to speak. Worship, for me, happens when I sit and watch the water on the pond. It's not that I break into "How Great Thou Art". Just a feeling of appreciativeness I suppose.

I rambled. Hope some of that made sense. It's noisy in my house tonight.

jON said...

as i've been thinking, and reading some older biographies, these people speak often of their "relationsihp with jesus." and i wonder, is that really what it is?

is there a difference between a relationship with jesus and a relationship with the father through the means of holy spirit?

has anyone here experienced BOTH in such a way as to be able to say that they are indeed different relationships? or is it our common ignorance that makes us believe that since we have faith in jesus and his death that it is now he, instead of the father, with whom we have connection and direction?

does that make any sense?

Ruth said...

That does make sense to me Jon.

I have been thinking about this:
'He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.' John 14:21

I wonder how has Jesus shown himself to me differently than God the Father? Or are they one in the same and are both represented here on earth as the Holy Spirit. I personaly think of them all mixed together as one.

i am interested to know what other people experience in regards to relationship with the Lord.

Katherine Gunn said...

Hmm... Yes. I have experienced distinct relationships with Papa God and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, for that matter. Three distinct personalities.

As has been commented, Jesus always pointed to the Father. He still does. But He is our High Priest - our mediator (Hebrews 4:14-5:10). And He is a good one. ;-D

Hmm... my relationships with them - yeah, I know. It's a little weird for me, too, growing up the way I did. But, hmm... you know, God referred to Himself as a 'them' (or rather as an us) in Genesis 1:26. And John said that the Word was with God and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else. I 'pray' generally speaking, to the Father, but I have had conversations with and asked things of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, as well. And they are right there and answer...

I know the first commandment (the most important one, Jesus said) was that the Lord God, He is One and to worship Him with our whole being. But in Genesis, He Himself referred to Himself as 'us.'

But... I know them as three... the relationship that is in the foreground, though, is the one with the Father.