Thursday, September 06, 2007

an old conversation that needs some new discussion

knock, knock.

338 comments:

1 – 200 of 338   Newer›   Newest»
jON said...

come in, come in. take your shoes and coat off. stay for awhile and join in the conversation, won't you? there's several people here, it's just hard to see them when they're not talking.

i've set up a table with some buffalo wings, dangerously hot nacho cheese & chips, and that smelly stuff over there is humus. (i'm told people eat it...) as well as a couple of neverending kegs of 1919 root beer and guinness. frosty mugs are, of course, provided.

feel free to have or bring anything you like. just bring enough to share, please.

i felt like addressing this over again in here because this is a question that plagues me. whether or not it plagues anyone else. so i would at least like to gain some more perspective from people whom i respect.

plus, i would like to simply leave this room here and see where it goes. obviously, if engaged, the conversation here would begin to take on a life of it own.

if you would like to post your comment on the original post, i will not limit your freedom to do so.

and if you have any friends that you think would dig this party, don't hesitate to invite them.

thanks for coming. it's good to see you.

so... (arms spead. head tilted to show genuine interest.)

what do YOU think?

Valorosa said...

Have you ever lived in poverty, Jon?
Have you ever lived in a dependent position since you have become an adult?

Dena G said...

Hey Jon...save some Guinness for me--I want to be part of this discussion, but I'm pretty well buried in "stuff" until after the weekend. :-)

I'll be reading, but I won't have much time for serious consideration and comment.

I'll be back...

jON said...

did you miss the part where i said "neverending"? there will be plenty of guinness left for you, dena.

as to the poverty question... the answer would have to be no. i know taht as a family, we were poor when i was very young. with my dad being a pastor in a rural church and having 6 kids plus several foster children, money was tight. i have heard several stories of my parents waking up in the morning and praying, "god, if we're going to eat today, it'll have to be you. if we could have some milk and bread, that would be great." and sometime during the day some person would stop by with milk and bread and we would eat for the day. i've also heard stories of the infamous "leftover soup" which i did not experience too much, but i'm sure nate would love to wax eloquent about.

but this was normal. i didn't know any different. and at the same time, i'm sure this is different than third world poverty.

why dost thou asketh?

jON said...

sorry. i missed the second part. what do you mean by "dependant position"? could you clarify? i mean, i think i know, but i don't want to assume. you know what they say about assumption being the mother of all fuckups.

Susan said...

I think God places different challenges in front of his people. For some the challenge is "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor". For others the challenge is to maintain faith and intergrity in the face of wealth, "He (Moses) regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt." (Hebrews 11:26). I think for most of us the challenge is somewhere in between. God needs his representatives in every socio-economic sphere of life.

So it is not for us to say, "Lord, what about him?" as Jesus' reply with be, "What is that to you? You must follow me." (John 21:21-22)

In this current conversation, Jon, I feel like I'm not really relating to your personal challenges so all I can do is pull up a seat nibble on the munchies and listen. So that's what I'll do!

Nate said...

When reading this post, which I really do no get at all, I get the feeling that I am already supposed to have a knowledge base that I am missing.

Let me expound a bit.

"if no one can buy or sell without the "mark of the beast", how do we reconcile our daily lives of said activity with this statement?"

Are you talking about when the tribulation comes and this happens? Are you saying that we now already have the mark of the beast and don't know it, but continue to buy and sell anyway? Are you asking, hell I don't know or understand what you are asking. I need it rephrased down to baby specifics before I can answer.

Great snacks though. That root beer really hits the spot. Brought some vanilla ice cream to make floats with.

jON said...

floats? suh-weetness.

susan, you have already added more than you think. i like the nugget from john's version of what went down. i think it is important to keep it in mind. often when thinking about things in theological terms, for some reason, i find myself, along with several others, tending to think in terms of universals. and what i mean is this: "if this has been my experience or understanding, then everyone else needs to have this same experience or understanding."

and i don't want that. as i said, this is something that has been laid on my own heart and i'm just looking for some abstract feedback. so, susan, if you feel lead to share something when your mouth doesn't have snacks in it, please do. :) of course, and as always, no pressure. it's just good to see you here. (btw, any chance of us scoring some vegimite sandwiches from you? i've always wanted to try them...)

nate... i'll try again...

the question i am asking is obviously very fractured. well, not fractured really, but many-parted. my first question is about the "mark" itself. what is it? is it a real thing that is going to come about? a time in which a mandatory marking of people will mark their allegience to a system, and without this "mark" you are not allowed to participate in this system? (unfortunately, this system has a strangle hold on the land and it's resources. making it difficult if not impossible to continue with life as you have known it prior to this mark coming about if you do not have it.)

OR...is this "mark" something that is not visible. something branded perhaps on your "actions" and "thoughts"? (right hand or forehead)

which is one part i am curious about.

but beyond the initial question is my concern with our current state of affairs as human beings in the "first-world" countries and the lives that we lead each day regardless of our belief structures. if we believe this statement from john's vision to be a true thing then how do we feel about it? how do we feel about our lives? should we be comfortable with them? should we continue to settle in as though a "great tribulation" is NOT coming?

because this vision of john's spoke of those who have "the mark" as those who "buy and sell." and that in order to "buy and sell" one must have this "mark" as a PRE-REQUISITE.

are we concerned about the fact that we engage in an activity near daily that those who will have "the mark" will engage in?

and, finally, (which is where all these questions have been building to. one big grand finale question.) if this does concern us, should we be doing something NOW to prepare ourselves to live in such a way that buying and selling is no longer necessary? not just for ourselves, but for our children in case it doesn't happen in our lifetime?

i hope this helps... questions are always welcome. in fact, they're usually more honest than answers..

much love.

jON said...

oh, and forgive my use of the word "we". i don't want you to think that i think this is for you. i only speak in terms of "we" to call those to whom the lord is also speaking to help them identify and know they're not alone in this.

this is heavy stuff and i don't think guilt should have any sort of place here as a motivator. if it's not for you, it's not for you. but i still value what you have to say.

Valorosa said...

I was just wondering if you ever had to live on the bare necessities ... and worry about paying rent and feeding and clothing yourself ... even if you had there would be someone or some place to go to get this kind of help in the country of abundance that you live in ... the same here ... even moreso ... God said He will not let the seed of a righteous man go hungry.
There is much unrighteousness and sin around us but there are those who strive for godliness and try to do what Christ has asked us to do ... and that is love Him and love our neighbour as ourselves... you live in a country that allows you the freedom to do these things. You have the strength and time to work and raise your family ... be grateful and thank God in all things even for the beast you speak of. Don't strive against the current ... you will just exhaust yourself ... work with the current ... take His yoke upon you and learn as He says ... His burden is light and His yoke is easy. Enjoy and celebrate, while you can, the life you have been given. Make changes and influence your circle with the love and wisdom of God ...

jON said...

thanks wendy. that has been the approach i have been using, and it has served me well thus far.

yet, i cannot shake this...feeling...that i should be doing something else. that the tides are changing. and i am now stuck wondering if i just sit around and wait for the big "crash", (which, as far as i can tell is on its way), or should i and others who feel so lead do something about it?

even in scripture, we see joseph helping the egyptians to stockpile while they have "fat" years to prepare for the "lean" years ahead.

what concerns me now more than ever is just how "far removed" we are from the earth. how we don't have the knowledge of how to feed and clothe ourselves when we don't have grocery stores and malls available to us. perhaps i am wrong, but i think these things are not going to last forever. every major civilization that has existed on the planet has met its end sooner or later. and i guess i just think perhaps we should do more than wait for it.

but maybe i am just exhausting myself thinking about it. maybe its so far off, its not worth contemplating. but in talking with people and working alongside of people who don't even make enough to live without having to work 2 or 3 jobs at about 90 hours a week... i just don't know how much longer it's going to last before it collapses. and that concerns me.

Dena G said...

I wonder about those same things, Jon.

I forget sometimes that my life is NOT the norm--I've lived in a rural community all my life and my earliest memories are of gardening with my grandparents. My gram taught me how to sew. I know how to preserve food. I have pretty extensive knowledge of herbs and natural remedies. When those are the things with which you're surrounded, it's easy to forget that a great percentage of the "first-world" people don't have that kind of knowledge/background.

We're such a fast-food, microwaveable, pre-packaged from the WalMart aisles SPOILED bunch of people...and I'm not so sure that the whole premise doesn't have evil at its core (I know--that makes me sound crazy! Oh, WELL...)

I have friends who stockpiled food and water before Y2K, thinking that the world was going to grind to a halt...I'm not sure that's the answer, but in the midst of these two extremes, there must be a somewhat sensible balance somewhere.

That's part of the potential beauty of this "community" thing we've been talking about--everyone brings different skills and knowledge to the table...and everyone reaps the benefits of working together.

Like this: You brought the Guinness. I brought my famous kick-ass guacamole and chips. You brought the rootbeer. Nate brought the ice cream. We've created a meal of sorts that we can all share together. And we're all happy.

One Voice of Many said...

Jon,

I know this doesn't actually address the question of "what is it" but...

McLaren (and others) suggest that, as with many other books in the Bible, it was written in the apocalyptic style but was referring to the current state of the political arena. Basically written in code as to communicate to the new church but not be so specific that everyone was rounded up.

Also, the mark of the beast period, has been suggested that it occurred in the time of Nero. His insane rule had some of the same characteristics as what are 'predicted' in Revelation.

Just a side-thought...
Michelle

Valorosa said...

We Canadians are going through similar things... we are working longer hours with less to show for it ... the cost of living is getting too high for many. People are not necessarily doing without but credit card debt is rampant and many are going bankrupt rather than struggle under the load of paying it back. Amazingly there is bankruptcy forgiveness like there never has been allowing people to still live ... This cannot be a good thing for any economy and I think the world may soon pool its resources to feed everyone ... it is probably going to be the sanest thing to do to get economies under control and feed the third world and teach them to find their own resources and then we will ask them to share with us ... it is sane, it is humanitarian... but it will give the beast absolute control over the entire world.

The beast from the sea
Rev. 13

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

The beast from the earth
Rev.13

He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

Rev.14

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Rev 16:1
The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image...
15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

Rev. 19
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Rev 20
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Note first resurrection and second death ...

It seems to me that there will be no escape from the mark ... you will be marked and probably hunted by the beast as one who has not taken the mark ... and you will be persecuted for it. Some say the rapture comes before all this happens but as you see the famous thief passage is right here in the midst of it all.

IF you do survive the persecution and are able to live through this, while you are not able to buy or sell, I'm thinking the Lord will honour you and care for you and provide food for you as he did Elijah when he was a hunted man.

You could become self sufficient on a piece of land that is fruitful ... for a small group of people ... but how could you hide this group of people from anyone? They would probably come around and set up the guillotine on your land ... :-(-:

jON said...

that's just it. i don't think the community should be "hidden" at all. i think it should be done completely in the open. i just think that if it is not within a couple hundred miles of any "major" city, then it would be "off their radar", which is as good as hidden. anything not being pumped out of the "information boxes" is completely lost on most people.

which is why i found it really interesting that there is almost NO information about nimrod available on the web. google, with all of its long-fingered might, only came up with a total of 4 mentions. 2 of them cursory. (the real-estate sites or job sites that come up with 'find jobs in nimrod!' or 'find a house in nimrod!' don't count because when asked, they actually couldn't find any jobs or houses in nimrod)

in my mind it could be the kind of place you wouldn't want to be unless you really wanted to be. it would be too much work.

but if it's where you want to be, i'm sure the work is worth it. and that's what i think you were getting at dena. not just here but on your blog as well. you have lived recently as a person having real community experience with gkk outside of major urban "communities".

when everyone brings their gift to the party, the efforts of few go very far. and it becomes a life worth living.

Dena G said...

Amen, my friend. :-)

I was talking earlier today with a friend about what "home" means to me...and how it's evolved over the past few years to mean something ENTIRELY different now than it did "way" back then (like, 5 or 6 years ago).

Home has become such a fluid thing for me--it's no longer the house in which I live...or the town in the middle of the cornfield...or the "land of Lincoln" or even the "good ole USA". Home is, not to sound TOO corny, truly where my heart is. Home is about being with people I love, no matter where they are. Even in a nowhere place like Nimrod, I would suspect. ;-)

When we all bring what God has given (time, talents, resources), and share them freely, we become a living example of the true church. I'm all about that.

Nate said...

Sorry ti have been out of the conversation for so long, but had to go to Orlande for a training session for the week. I do not like Orlando, so it was a long week.

Any way, I think that what you are asking is a number of questions.

"If to buy and sell we have to have the mark of the beast, what are we doing today to counter that offensive at us in the future?"

"Why do we feel it is OK to continue down the current path?"

I have been able to thinks about this for a week or so. My answer is. God does not care for me to care about it. It is not something that I will worry about because whatever God has in store for me, he will provide what I need in one way or another.

jON said...

thta's completely cool. as i said from the beginning, not everyone will feel this in their heart. and i completely respect that.

thank you for giving it serious thought.

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