Saturday, March 11, 2006


after 3 and a half years of waiting, pearl jam is finally releasing a new record on may 2nd. for those of you who have not kept up with them, they are one of the best bands in the world. probably my all time favorite. they really resonate with me. in case you were unaware, back in 2000 after the demise of soundgarden, matt cameron (soundgarden's drummer) came on as the full time 5th member the band had never quite had. i do not think they held a drummer for more than 3 records. but now... my goodness. i don't even listen to Ten anymore. it's mixed like a glam metal record since that is what was big at the time. and it's depressing that they get treated like "classic rock" when they've never stopped. if you have the means, check it out. yet another reason to celebrate.
these gentleman are one of the main reasons i have a hard time believing that people must "accept christ" in order to be born again. nowhere else have i found a group of people whose lyrics over and over again put forth truth and a life lived by the spirit, and as far as i know, do so in ignorance. here's one juicy morsel that is one of my favorites:
large fingers pushing paint
you're god and you've got big hands
the colors blend... the challenges you give man
seek my part... devote myself
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
sometimes i know, sometimes i rise
sometimes i fall, sometimes i don't
sometimes i cringe, sometimes i live
sometimes i walk, sometimes i kneel
sometimes i speak of nothing at all
sometimes i reach to myself, dear god


Paul said...

Jeremy [by Pearl Jam] is probably one of the most profound, yet haunting music videos of all time. Although I never listened to their other music, I will never forget that song, or its message.

jON said...

a powerful song of admonition to watch how we treat others as we do not know who they truly are, where they come from, or what affect our insults and jibes will have on them.

Wendy ftfs said...

My first intro to this band was hearing their resurrection of "Last Kiss" and my very FIRST impression was,lol, what a bad singer.....but the passion behind his rendition wasn't lost on me ...and I reminded myself there is another bad singer out there that you have loved to listen to... Bob Dylan. It wasn't the "good voice" (lol) I enjoyed, it was what Bob said that I enjoyed.... I think if you dig around you will find that there is some spiritual background and I'd even say biblical influence on the songwriters in this band ...
I have a question for you.... what do you do with John 1:12 that clearly states "to all who RECEIVED him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
I know.... I'm challenging you yet again..... LOL

jON said...

well... if you come back and check this out, i would love the discussion to go as far as it can. i need help with this.

as i have said in our study on acts and more recently on romans, i think it is possible for people to encounter the holy spirit in ignorance and respond. RECEIVE if that word is more palatable. Romans 2 gives a good run down of this. when those who do not have "the law" do the things in keeping with the law, their "uncircumcision" becomes "circumcision".

which, i take to mean, that a person can indeed respond to what is written on their heart (for the bible states it is written on ALL of our hearts now, doesn't it?) and become, or be "given the right to become", children of god. even if they do not have full revelation of what they are responding to. yet.

AND if we look at the reference you have given for john 1:12, john is speaking in direct reference to the jews. people who had full revelation in their hands and did not understand it. but SHOULD have had a much better foundation for receving jesus fully and believing in his name. and yet again, let's not forget that john is also referencing things that took place before the spirit was poured out on all flesh.

much more to say on this topic, but i would like to hear a response on this first before i wax on any other points.

Wendy ftfs said...

Yes, I've noticed Romans 2 for a while now and not everybody receives that word as you and I have, but I believe you are on to something here, Jon. As I have written to you before in another blog comment when we studied Acts, Jesus said he had sheep that were not of "this" sheep pen. Let's wade through this together and see what we come up with.
John was not only referencing things that were before the spirit is poured out on all flesh, he is referencing things before the earth was made, before Adam and before Abraham..... before the Jewish nation had come to be. John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it"
.... skipping down ...." 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." There are other references to the fact that Christ has been around since the beginning. I'll have to dig around for them..maybe you know where they are ... And in John 1:12 I believe all means all, not just the Jews. I'll come back to this tonight as I have mundane, blah chores to do now..... :-) I've tried to invent a way for laundry to do itself and dust and dirt to have the decency to hit the road or not to even enter my house but they are unruly evils and continue to invade my life ..... I'll leave you with this for now ....Do you remember the reason that Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land?
Blessings.... I'm so glad to read about your successes with Zaavan and hear the elation in your words as Erin and you recount your adventures. Zaavan is blessed to have you as you are blessed to have Zaavan.

jON said...

i apologize for the delay. in order to have more free time with the family and my "street" ministry (parties, online community, etc.) i work 3 long days. unfortunately i have not been freed completely of money yet. hopefully someday, but cutting back has definitely been amazing. it has opened up life in a way that is actually enjoyable and frees me up to do more of what i have been called to do. but of course, the people i work with need what i have just as much as anyone else, so it is still good for me to see them. all of that being said, i work 12 hour shifts wed., fri., and sat. the rest of the time i'm standing by pretty much all day.

yes. moses was not allowed to enter, “ Because you have not believed Me..."(Nu. 20:12)

and as far as john 1:12 goes...verse 11 preceeding it speaks of jesus coming "to his own", wihch i would understand as the jews. the verses before THAT are referencing the world. given the context, i find it unclear as to whether john is speaking of everyone or just the jews in verse 12. i do indeed like to extrapolate, but i also like to be careful to let people know when i am going beyond what is written and going into speculation. when we do not do this, we end up with the mess we have now teaching things to people as though they were the word of god when in fact they are nowhere, explicitly, to be found in the scriptures.

this might take up some room, but hopefully, reading and contemplating things like this give you a greater joy than something else you could be doing. i'm going to try to lay this out in a concise manner, but as you know, i have a problem. i tend to communicate in a predominantly feminine way as i realize that all things intertwine in some fashion and i like to show this. (which may be why i have so many female readers?) i will try to stay on task.

i am not sure as to the extent of your theological studies, though i can tell your knowledge is great. so i am just going to throw out words. if you for some reason are not familiar with them, please take the time to look them up so you know exactly what i'm trying to say.

in the realms of "salvation" there are two major theological camps. we, in america, like two camps. it makes it easier to divide us when there are only two sides. anyway...
these two camps are calvinism and arminianism. now of course there are several minor parties. the forefront of these would be universalism. i have at one point been affiliated with all three. i grew up with arminianism. i then, in an effort to study and find my own faith, embraced calvinism. all the while, feeling a burning in my heart to embrace universalism. however, knowing that not everyone "goes to heaven" i could not, in good conscience, do so.

where i am coming now is a synthesis of all three. it would seem to me that the issue is not "having your sins forgiven so you can go to heaven" as is the common teaching in ALL camps. no, i don't think that is it at all.

i am grateful for the cross. it is the central act of all humanity. i'm not trying to downplay it at all. it is our hope, it is our message. it is the good news. but what exactly is this good news? is it that jesus has died and now, if you ask him to be your "personal saviour" you can "have your sins forgiven so you can go to heaven?" i don't think so anymore.

what i see in scripture, when i strip away all previous doctrine and tradition and just allow it to speak for itself without any other man's interpretations before my mind is this...
christ's sacrifice paid the price of the law for all of us for all time. how can a sacrifice not do what it was meant to do? honestly. how can it only be a "potential" forgiveness as the arminians would maintain? or a "limited atonement" as the calvinists would maintain? in this i believe the universalists have it right when they say the cross was for everyone and that it accomplished all it was meant to.

how could it not? how can you hold back the power that is in that blood? if that perfect sacrifice HAS BEEN MADE, how can it be held back? how can that blood not cover everyone? i think it does. if that one time temporal event was to cover over the transgressions of the law once and for all time, i believe it did just that.

but where does that leave us? scripture plainly states that not all will partake in the kingdom. and this is where i branch off in my own studies...

i don't think it's about having our sins forgiven. i think it's about obeying the father through his spirit. because over and over again when judgement is proclaimed and what it will be like on that day we see people being judged "according to what their deeds deserve." there are too many scriptures to list here, but if you are interested, i will do the legwork and find them all for you.

the sheep and the goats. as keith green so aptly noted, "the only difference between the two, according to the scriptures, is what they did and didn't do." and of course in the warnings of jesus to the seven churches, when he speaks and warns the church in sardis, he speaks of deeds. and those deeds being done or not done seem to be the basis of people being able to stay in the book of life and walk with jesus in white garments. but those whose deeds have not been completed will see their names erased from the book of life. and we know from later on in revelation that, "if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

so i don't think that the forgiveness that was poured out on all of us accoding to the law was the end of this story and that "believing" in this story will be our salvation allowing us to "go to heaven and live the good life."

i think that the cross fulfilled the law, putting us in right standing with god. and THAT should be the basis of our faith. that we all now have right standing with god, as pertains to the law, so that we may be purified to receive the holy spirit into this world, and into ourselves. and once having received the holy spirit, to have the ability to listen to and obey god on a moment by moment basis to do what it is he would call each one of us to do. and it is on the basis of that moment by moment obedience that shows us to be citizens of the kingdom or not.

so why is the world the way it is now if we are all in right standing before god? because we rufuse to "repent". because we refuse to change our minds and believe. the cross is still a stumbling block. "it can't be that easy. surely i must keep to some standard in order to be good and holy before god. surely there must be a universal set of requirements that must be kept in conjunction with this belief in order for us to be 'saved'."

and so they stumble. thinking that our right standing before god is based on works and not on grace. and they are right that works are required. but not for right standing before god. THAT was accomplished on the cross. (thank you, jesus)

the works that are required of us are the works the father would ask of us on a moment by moment basis given our situation at any given moment. as paul said to put forth this very balance in perfect succinctness (though largely misunderstood), (Eph. 8-10)" For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

but where does this bring us now in relation to our discussion? what i think is this. i do not think that simply professing a "belief in christ" or "accepting christ" is what brings us into the kingdom. i think it is hearing the spirit and obeying. and i see this sort of thing happening on a huge global scale. by some people who take on the name christian and by many who do not. i see many who respond to the spirit in ignorance and begin to produce what i would call true fruit of the spirit and works in keeping with that.

so what is the problem for us in christendom? we refuse to hear anything outside of the system we have created. we refuse to hear the spirit. we have created a new law as a measuring stick for sincerity. when we speak of "the faith" we do not mean a moment by moment relationship with the spirit of the living god resulting in obedience that leads to life.
(which was jesus' true example to us if we would open our eyes and ears) rather, when we reference "the faith" we reference "christianity." our new set of traditions and rules. and we champion this new system, this new morality, as though it were god himself. and we bow before it. and we fight for it. and we trample people for it. all for the sake of not having to live in the messiness of the freedom of the spirit. all for the sake of not having to love and draw near people and get to know their hearts before we judge them. all, truly, for the sake of us not having to live in this manner. or perhaps having to admit that indeed, we do NOT know the spirit of god, nor do we obey the things he asks of us. it is easier for us to set up a new system of requirements, based of the bible mind you, and then in keeping those requirements, call it good enough. call it obedience. and it is obedience. but obedience to what? obedience to the system that we have set up for ourselves in god's image to bow and worship and say, "here is our saviour. here is our deliverer." we should be very afraid.


i do not think this fact is lost on many people. and that many who have left "the church" have done so because the spirit of god, the TRUE spirit of god, has lead them away from such a false god. into the newness of the spirit. but this also has disatrous results as many who walk away figure EVERYTHING they have been told is a lie and walk away from god as well. i pray for these that their faith would not fail and that they would see they have been indeed following god, the true god of the bible and he has, in his faithfulness, lead them to where they are.

it is to these lost sheep i have been sent, for i am one myself, and i love them dearly and would like nothing more than to see them brought into the full revelation of god in jesus christ and not just continuing to live and worship in spirit only.

i know this has been quite a bit, but i think this is the core of what i believe as pertains to the cross, grace, and our life in christ. blessings to you, sister. thank you for coming along side of me, to refresh me, to hear me, and discuss with me. it means more to me than i think you know.

Wendy ftfs said...

Thanks Jon.... I'll be back ... I'm spending the day with my son today and I will reread this later and we'll talk more ..... :-)

Wendy ftfs said...

Hi Jon and blessings to Erin,

Numero Uno,
I agree totally with everything you are saying re: the organized church...yes I do. I'm going to respond to two things you've said here for now, as time will not allow otherwise right now..and I will get back to the rest SOON.

"i think it is possible for people to encounter the holy spirit in ignorance and respond."

I don't think there is any ignorance involved... just like Zaavan responds to you...these people mentioned in Romans 2 are the Lord's sheep. When thay hear his voice thay respond in a "receiving" way and follow Jesus even if they don't have that name in their heads...they 'know" His voice ... Hey, the Lord has many names...the Lion of Judah the bright and morning star, counsellor,prince of peace,rose of Sharon....WONDERFUL :-)
Oh,yes He IS wonderful. selah
They could live anywhere on the planet... far away from the written word and may have never heard the word of God in their entire lifetime because "western" lol missionaries didn't get their job done!!! LOL I have nothing against missionaries except the ones who go and make a nice life for themselves complete with servants....If you want to know about that, tune into the Gospel for Asia and read some of K.P.Yohannen's books. But, that aside... there is NO way that missionaries are going to reach EVERY person in this world who belongs to the Lord before they die. If you remember in our study of Acts how many Gentiles wherever Paul went were believers already. Is it hard to reap a harvest? No.... just walk in to the field and start gathering. Do we think the Lord is so dependent on US? No, the King of kings and the Lord of lords doesn't need any of us. He wants us... because we are His children. Just like you don't need Zaavan...Zaavan needs you but you want him because you love him deeply. In the whole intertwining of hearts you then in turn need Zaavan and would have great sorrow if he wasn't with you. That's why the Lord wants us... because of His bond of love with us and that is the only reason He "needs" us. The scriptures are a love relationship and if that central theme is lost then we get lost.

In John 1:12 John is just telling it like it is... those who respond to His voice he gives the power to become the children of God. It's not a forceful thing that you need an altar call is just a fact....

Numero Dos,
i have a problem. i tend to communicate in a predominantly feminine way as i realize that all things intertwine in some fashion and i like to show this. (which may be why i have so many female readers?)

You say that like it's a bad thing

Let me know your thoughts?

zaavan said...

it's good to know we are on the same page, then.

i would like to clarify what i mean by "ignorance". i think people recognize this spirit in their hearts as good and something worth following and they "hear his voice" and follow. yet, it seems to me that these do not know it is the "god of the bible" they are following and would perhaps vehemently deny that they believe in him perhaps because of injuries they have sustained at the hands of "the church."

so in trying to not follow the "christian" god, they end up doing just that whether they realize it or not. for our god is all about truth. and at those moments, those people are more honest than they've ever been...

jON said...

man, i did it again. that was me before, not erin. just so you know.

jON said...

and the feminine communication is not a bad thing. it just makes me a little wordy as i try so desperately hard to explain every little nuance of whatever it is i'm talking about. and i'm sure it can be a little laborious reading at times.

Wendy ftfs said...

It's possible ... but you will know them by their fruits ...right? You will know them because your spirit recognizes them when you meet. You know that they are not the enemy of God because the Holy Spirit lets you know. I'm wondering, though, if a true believer leaves the church because of pain received, leaves the Lord. I am positive that they don't. Or even those who have been raised in a perverted form of Christianity... when they reject that, they will find the truth of the bible and will instead reject the teachings that they have received rather than reject the Lord. Because I hold to this scripture that "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me" I cannot see anyone who is a sheep vehemently denying the blood of Christ and its purpose. I guess they may deny the form of Christianity. I just want to caution you because there is much evil about which is disguised fairly well. Listen very carefully as you deal with those who claim to be injured sheep. Although there are many, they're not all that way. Be careful of wolves in sheep's clothing. I guess this may be what I'm trying to say to you as you allow people in to your world.
In Joel 2 where the Lord tells us that he will pour out his spirit on all flesh he also states this... Joel2:32 "And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;"

How does this sit with you? :-)

jON said...

i would agree with you. about everything. i have, in several different forms, been going about these things, or trying to, rather, for several years.

i have encountered many wolves along the way and learned many lessons as well. but at the same time, should i not be willing to be shredded every now and again for the sake of those true sheep who are out there?

for what you have said is true. everyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved. and i believe that it is god's will for "everyone everywhere to repent". so, i believe that god's ultimate desire for these who are following the spirit, but perhaps do not know precisely which spirit they follow, to KNOW which spirit they follow.

Jn 4:23-24 "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

how to find a marriage of the two. often, i find in my travels throughout our world, that many inside the church will worship in truth, but have been made to fear and even reject the world of the spirit.
others outside will have no problems with the spirit, but for various reasons have been taught to fear or even reject the truth.

it is the father's desire that these two sides marry. and by sides, i mean spirit and truth. it seems much easier to get spirit people to accept truth (if you are of the same spirit!) than it is to get truth people to accept spirit.

for some reason, i desire to do both. i think that's what paul went about doing. finding which side the people with whom he was speaking were lacking, and communicating that the best he could in terms they could (or should) understand.

Wendy ftfs said...

it seems much easier to get spirit people to accept truth (if you are of the same spirit!) than it is to get truth people to accept spirit.

I'm thinking that you cannot have one without the other ...

So I'm thinking you are talking about something else like people who have been indoctrinated and brain washed ... who need to be set free? And those who are not comfy in the church atmosphere because they don't perceive themselves to be as squeaky clean, but live godly lives.
lol I'm just translating into Wendy language so I don't miss what you are saying.

jON said...

that is exactly what i am saying! what do you think about that?

Anonymous said...

:-) Peachy, Dude !!
I'd like to go back to Tagged if that's ok with you...

Wendy ftfs said...

oops lol that was me lol

jON said...

that is absolutely alright. in fact, i have been waiting ever so long for you to do so. i'll see you over at exfoliations is dead. love to hear what you have to say in continuing that conversation now that we are two months further down our paths.